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MTuralon
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that's the issue. there isn't anything we are fighting in 25 man that requires 4 tanks. at all. and unless Uel or Bel or Lor drops in the first 8 seconds of a pull, no one is available to Brez, and everyone else is still up, there's no reason for an E-tank.

I actually think lor/uel/tyluv are probably about equal in regards to offspec DPS, I haven't run with Bel for DPS since we first ran into Ulduar so Don't know what you have for gear/#s.
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MTuralon wrote:
I actually think lor/uel/tyluv are probably about equal in regards to offspec DPS, I haven't run with Bel for DPS since we first ran into Ulduar so Don't know what you have for gear/#s.


Actually ran Bel ret in Ony10 last night, around 3450 dps single target on the trash before Ony. Ret set is 2300gs, and I haven't socketed the bracers or wrists. The bulk of my single target damage is still straight-up swing, I need to get a better weapon I supose. Still using the Death's Bite from KT.

Belgarion

*edit* Actually, as I review the data from Turalon and Kadius on the trash pulls from the last Ony25 they were at, the percentages of damage from swing, judgement, etc etc are in the same proportion for all three of us, so I suppose I'm doing it right and it's simply gear. Seems like the toughest part of ret pallying is staying alive, heh.
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Belgarion. wrote:
btw, totally agree on the gear thingy compaired to almost any other class. Now imagine trying to get feral gear on offspec because you're in as heals. Can you say cold day in a supernova? I thought that you could, lol.

Belgarion


don't supernova's generally occur in the frigid vacuum of space?


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MTuralon
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Belgarion. wrote:
MTuralon wrote:
I actually think lor/uel/tyluv are probably about equal in regards to offspec DPS, I haven't run with Bel for DPS since we first ran into Ulduar so Don't know what you have for gear/#s.


Actually ran Bel ret in Ony10 last night, around 3450 dps single target on the trash before Ony. Ret set is 2300gs, and I haven't socketed the bracers or wrists. The bulk of my single target damage is still straight-up swing, I need to get a better weapon I supose. Still using the Death's Bite from KT.

Belgarion

*edit* Actually, as I review the data from Turalon and Kadius on the trash pulls from the last Ony25 they were at, the percentages of damage from swing, judgement, etc etc are in the same proportion for all three of us, so I suppose I'm doing it right and it's simply gear. Seems like the toughest part of ret pallying is staying alive, heh.


3.5K DPS for trash stuff in there isn't bad. If you are truly interested in increasing your static DPS without gear, you can update your spec a little. 5/5 toughness would be better served in seals of the pure (increases your damage) and you can take 1 out of vindication for Seal of Command (SoC is your new cleave and used for trash that doesn't die in 10 seconds)

Also if you get rid of your exorcism glyph for Seal of Vengeance you'll do more damage (expertise cap and all)

but yeah aside from figuring out which ability to prioritize, its just a matter of staying alive once you get the spec/glyphs done. that and just putting on some tier gear for the bonus.
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Ok, to sum up the spells in Bear/Kitty... you don't have HANDS! You do in other forms whether they be wooden fingers or feathered fingers. And yes as a shaman to cast spells I have to be in humanoid form, I cannot cast Heroism from wolf form. Why? No hands. Can't cast ANY spells while in wolf form or drop totems so it is a junk form only used for leveling (can spec to instant cast so can run from outdoor combat) not even good for Enhancement (also can't use it indoors but druids can??).

So if you want to play warrior (bear) or rogue (kitty) you don't get to use your spells for all of what 1 second before you can (don't know switch time GCD). Your example of running up and taunting to cast heroism is just lame. Your not taunting in your tree form when you cast spells, if Laanyan has aggro when he casts anything he gets hit, doesn't matter what the spell is. When a druid goes kitty he pretends to be a rogue (energy bar not mana, like a rogue) so will be restricted to rogue like abilities (some not all), when they go bear they play warrior (rage not mana...) so in these forms where will the mana come from to cast the spell? In all specs of shaman, you are casting spells, even in the 'melee' spec we only get like 2-3 physical attacks, I am not trying to be a rogue, I don't get an energy bar, don't use combo points. You want to play warrior and rogue and still want to play caster at the same time, should have made a paladin.
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Your forms with paws can't cast spells, that makes sense game wise (if you go by the assumption that casting a spell is real and takes gestures and or manipulation of spell components to cast) AND they don't have mana.

Gear wise, yes there is competition, but if there is so much competition, why are you and Aff two of the most geared people in the guild? You are on the same raid teams so you two compete for EVERY piece, and yet are still some of the most powerful toons on the raid? Gear goes in streaks and you winning something doesn't 'gimp' the DPS, it just means one other person didn't get an upgrade, YOU did. You winning a leather drop that could be used for DPS is the same as Plate healing boots dropping from Affs point of view. If the random number generator had been different before the boss died he would still be in the same gear, he just wouldn't have had to type '/random'. And how many frigin times IN A ROW did Kologarn drop the same boots and cloak week after week? 3 weeks in a row it was identical drops, then 1 and a new, then the other and a new. That's the same to EVERYONE ELSE as you winning each time. They didn't get worse or 'gimped' they just didn't win something this time. Every piece of leather that drops is a piece Harley doesn't (can't) win so is that 'gimping' him? Even if it is caster stats.

As for your DPS: I have never seen you not end up as bear sometime on a raid. You aren't just beating the tanks, there are a few DPS that don't even beat the tanks so it's not like your DPS in tanky gear is killing you. You are also ALWAYS number 3 or 4 on Damage Recieved, Laanyan will never be able to do that. So because your not the top of one chart, that's bad? Weigh all the charts evenly (even for people who can't do the job, ie Warrior heals) and you or Tur will be the top performer of ANY run. You guys CAN take a punch, you guys CAN dish damage, and you guys CAN heal, AND you guys DO every raid. Maybe you won't be the top of one chart or another, but your never below 1/2 on ANY and no one else can say that. Look at Afflack, 1st in DPS, usually like in the top 10 for damage received so say 8th (aggro over should be lower), and healing is a tie for 25th. Ty on the other hand, DPS I know of 12 people you beat every time +/- so lets say 12th, Damaged is 4th always or higher, healing like 7th. Add the places up, and it's like golf so low is good, and you get Aff=34 Ty=23. Laan who does two jobs, DPS 11th, Healing 5th, damaged tie for 25th but call it 17th, total 33. Tetra, 3rd heals, 25th 25th for damage in and out.... Even the paladins don't do as much per raid as you. Tur 3rd DPS, 9th heals, and like in the 20s for damage in (he avoids the fire well).... So no when your in emergency Tank slot you can't do quite as much DPS as possible, but you can do good DPS AND TANK in 1 second and pop and innervate or b-rez.

As for warlocks who have to take a spec that reducers their 1 JOB, by a large amount, to get 1 buff to the raid (demon pact, not saying it's their only buff just 1 special buff), they can't go destro UNTIL they want to spec down mid fight. You could go super kitty and ok bear spec, but you choose to be a bear that goes kitty. You're still a top performer in DPS, and above I just realized it's damage done not damage per second as you are higher than 12th when just doing damage, just your overall # goes down from tanking, just not THE top.

Yes we have suddenly gotten pretty rogue heavy, so you now have some competition for leather beyond Afflack, but it's not like you get excluded from the tank rings/trinkets that I ever saw. So for leather you're 1/3 and trinkets you're 1/4. Laan at BEST is 1/6 for cloth and 1/10 for rings/trinkets.

How much do you need?


Last edited by Rildasomia on 2009/11/27 8:19 am; edited 1 time in total


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Rildasomia wrote:
Ok, to sum up the spells in Bear/Kitty... you don't have HANDS! You do in other forms whether they be wooden fingers or feathered fingers. And yes as a shaman to cast spells I have to be in humanoid form, I cannot cast Heroism from wolf form. Why? No hands. Can't cast ANY spells while in wolf form or drop totems so it is a junk form only used for leveling (can spec to instant cast so can run from outdoor combat) not even good for Enhancement (also can't use it indoors but druids can??).


That's called Travel Form and it's when I look like a leopard. That's the same as your wolf form and can only be used outdoors and doesn't allow any spells either.

Rildasomia wrote:
So if you want to play warrior (bear) or rogue (kitty) you don't get to use your spells for all of what 1 second before you can (don't know switch time GCD). Your example of running up and taunting to cast heroism is just lame. Your not taunting in your tree form when you cast spells, if Laanyan has aggro when he casts anything he gets hit, doesn't matter what the spell is. When a druid goes kitty he pretends to be a rogue (energy bar not mana, like a rogue) so will be restricted to rogue like abilities (some not all), when they go bear they play warrior (rage not mana...) so in these forms where will the mana come from to cast the spell? In all specs of shaman, you are casting spells, even in the 'melee' spec we only get like 2-3 physical attacks, I am not trying to be a rogue, I don't get an energy bar, don't use combo points. You want to play warrior and rogue and still want to play caster at the same time, should have made a paladin. Your forms with paws can't cast spells, that makes sense game wise (if you go by the assumption that casting a spell is real and takes gestures and or manipulation of spell components to cast) AND they don't have mana.


You missed the whole point of the example - look at the point of the example. The point of the example was to point out that heroism is your special ability. You don't LOSE that ability or significantly weaken yourself in order to use that ability in any spec as a shaman - same thing with every other class except a druid in Bear form. Kitty form technically also, yes, because you lose the dps ability for the second, but it doesn't have the same effect of less armor and hps. The effective use of the druid specific abilities (b-rez and innervate) are impeded significantly in bear form when having to pop out and in because bear form implies aggro of something. That is the only reason why I said taunt in the example. As far as hand and such, ok great. That give me the perfect reasoning of why not to give me my spells, like wrath and healing, in form. It depends on your interpretation of b-rez and innervate, however, as these are class specific spells or abilities. For b-rez, it could be breathing on you, and innervate, I can sneeze on you and you get mana back if you want to be completely silly about it. They are unique to the class is the point. Not if they are spells or not. Unique ability of the class that's not available for use 90% of the time if in bear form aka tanking spec - that specifically is the point and problem.

Rildasomia wrote:
Gear wise, yes there is competition, but if there is so much competition, why are you and Aff two of the most geared people in the guild? You are on the same raid teams so you two compete for EVERY piece, and yet are still some of the most powerful toons on the raid? Gear goes in streaks and you winning something doesn't 'gimp' the DPS, it just means one other person didn't get an upgrade, YOU did. You winning a leather drop that could be used for DPS is the same as Plate healing boots dropping from Affs point of view. If the random number generator had been different before the boss died he would still be in the same gear, he just wouldn't have had to type '/random'. And how many frigin times IN A ROW did Kologarn drop the same boots and cloak week after week? 3 weeks in a row it was identical drops, then 1 and a new, then the other and a new. That's the same to EVERYONE ELSE as you winning each time. They didn't get worse or 'gimped' they just didn't win something this time. Every piece of leather that drops is a piece Harley doesn't (can't) win so is that 'gimping' him? Even if it is caster stats.


Again - you missed the whole point of what I was saying. The percentages of one type of item are spread pretty evenly across. So 8% tank plate, 8% healy plate, 8% cloth, etc, etc, and 8% melee leather. That doesn't equate to even loot distribution when you take the melee leather and add a druid tank competing for it. I'm not saying anything about how well or undergeared I am. I know I'm well geared. I've worked hard to be where I am. You're misinterpreting what I'm saying and allowing the RNG and what actually drops to interfere with the % of what could happen when a piece of leather actually drops. The % chance of an item dropping is x. I'm talking about the % split y of when said item actually does drop. Get the difference?

Rildasomia wrote:
As for your DPS: I have never seen you not end up as bear sometime on a raid. You aren't just beating the tanks, there are a few DPS that don't even beat the tanks so it's not like your DPS in tanky gear is killing you. You are also ALWAYS number 3 or 4 on Damage Recieved, Laanyan will never be able to do that. So because your not the top of one chart, that's bad? Weigh all the charts evenly (even for people who can't do the job, ie Warrior heals) and you or Tur will be the top performer of ANY run. You guys CAN take a punch, you guys CAN dish damage, and you guys CAN heal, AND you guys DO every raid. Maybe you won't be the top of one chart or another, but your never below 1/2 on ANY and no one else can say that. Look at Afflack, 1st in DPS, usually like in the top 10 for damage received so say 8th (aggro over should be lower), and healing is a tie for 25th. Ty on the other hand, DPS I know of 12 people you beat every time +/- so lets say 12th, Damaged is 4th always or higher, healing like 7th. Add the places up, and it's like golf so low is good, and you get Aff=34 Ty=23. Laan who does two jobs, DPS 11th, Healing 5th, damaged tie for 25th but call it 17th, total 33. Tetra, 3rd heals, 25th 25th for damage in and out.... Even the paladins don't do as much per raid as you. Tur 3rd DPS, 9th heals, and like in the 20s for damage in (he avoids the fire well).... So no when your in emergency Tank slot you can't do quite as much DPS as possible, but you can do good DPS AND TANK in 1 second and pop and innervate or b-rez.

As for warlocks who have to take a spec that reducers their 1 JOB, by a large amount, to get 1 buff to the raid (demon pact, not saying it's their only buff just 1 special buff), they can't go destro UNTIL they want to spec down mid fight. You could go super kitty and ok bear spec, but you choose to be a bear that goes kitty. You're still a top performer in DPS, and above I just realized it's damage done not damage per second as you are higher than 12th when just doing damage, just your overall # goes down from tanking, just not THE top.


I'm not talking about being tops of the charts or anything. You mentioned that I'm the only class that can do both tanking well and high dps. I'm saying no, I'm not high dps, and proving it by only being just above the tanks when I haven't been popping bear.

Rildasomia wrote:
Yes we have suddenly gotten pretty rogue heavy, so you now have some competition for leather beyond Afflack, but it's not like you get excluded from the tank rings/trinkets that I ever saw. So for leather you're 1/3 and trinkets you're 1/4. Laan at BEST is 1/6 for cloth and 1/10 for rings/trinkets.


Again, I'm not complaining about my winning or losing drops. It's the % of distribution when a specific piece does drop, not the % chance of a specific piece to drop. It has nothing to do with how many rogues or druids we take or how many of a specific class we take. It's the % of distribution if we have 1 of each class for a specific drop that's off.


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And again your missing the point on a lot of things:
Wolf is more than travel form, I can fight in it last I checked (lvl 60ish).

Bear and Kitty ARE SPECIAL Abilities, you want to be able to do everything at once, you can't.
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If I want to use 2 special abilities that define a shaman (lets pick self rez and Hero) I have to do them at different times, and if I don't do self rez first, I can't do hero if I died. You want it ALL RIGHT NOW. Casting while in a form without hands doesn't make any sense. I can't use the Totem of Wrath when not in Elemental form, or Mana tide Totem when not in Resto, so why should you be able to use EVERY ability ALL the time? There has to be a limit to what one class can do at all times and your saying there shouldn't for druid. 'I want to be a tank and a healer at the same time in the same fight', it is stupid to think that is a drawback that you can't rez people while your the tank. You are not giving up anything for the ability to TANK. You can still cast those abilities as the tank during an evoc stage of the boss or if the OT taunts off you, you just want them NOW AND ALWAYS, and that's more than any other class expects.

For gear you're missed th point again: healers use DPS cloth AND healing cloth, DPS doesn't use healing cloth rings and trinkets can usually be used by every caster. So there should be more than 8% DPS cloth dropped, but there isn't. Leather is still one of the least competed for pools (I think healing chain or plate is the bottom). So 8% of the drops are useful to you (RNG aside), well there are what 3 leather wearers usually (melee, you aff and the occasional other rogue), wow that's some tough competition for gear. Harley - Laan - Len - Entice - Jeat - Chaos - Misto - Moormage. Yeah can't see how you ever get more gear since your competing against all those rogues (even if Ooga AND Cal show up) and for trinkets/rings, you roll against Lor - Uel - Bel? Ok caster wide: Harley - Laan - Len - Entice - Jeat - Chaos - Misto - Moormage - Tetra - Sig - Ellwyn - Midaz, agility rings you say? Ty - Aff - Derf - Neth - Atrias, yeah sounds like there should be more druid only tanking leather.... So piece XYZ of leather drops, at most you would have to wait for it to drop 4 times to get it (worst cast of 3 rogues showing up forever no pugs), well tetra wants trinket ABC that's 8 billion spell power, could be 3 Months IF IT DROPS EVERY WEEK (and that's not counting the usual 4 other rotating caster/healer). So no, having to compete against ROGUES and FERAL DRUIDS for your drops does not put the averages against you. How anyone but a clothy thinks they have the worst chance at getting a drop is beyond me. Because not only do they have to compete against the other clothies, all healers/casters can use cloth and sometimes it's BiS for EVERYONE so add in Healadins - Boomers - Trees - Shammiesx2. Using '% split y' you are in one of the better categories, you compete against the least common class for your gear (census) and think you have the less of a chance of getting a split for you???

Now for DPS on the last run I was looking at for DPS you beat 5 other full-time DPS people and your not in DPS gear (gems/enchants) or full DPS spec (all bear points not kitty) so your in the middle of the pack. But yet you have the ability to save the raid if Uel locks up??? So you give up some DPS for the ability to save 23 people a lot of frustration? I think most of the raiders are glad we have a fully decked out Bear that knows what he is doing ready to go in 1 GDC if the Fit hits the Shan! AND he is holding his own against the average DPS of the guild while not saving everyone's ass! AND is refilling Jeat's collinder-of-mana-holding! AND brings Turalon back after he poped his wings as the Taunt got resisted! How frigin much do you want to do? So you can't beat a toon that only has 1 job to focus on, not worried about anyone but themselves, just poke poke poke 'my health is good, no fire on me'. Where you have to watch the health of the tanks, and yours and do other jobs that are asked (which stop your dps) and be ready to jump into the most important job on the raid in 1 second, and you ALSO want to be the highest DPS? You say not highest, but even though you beat several DPS raiders it's not enough so you must want to be at the top, you want more?

And you can't talk about " the % of distribution when a specific piece does drop" without talking about how many people are going to roll on it. Tetra does great gear-wise because I am the only mail caster! (Sig is away at college and such). The mail doesn't drop that often, but I have a 100% of winning if it does drop, 50% if she is there and healing! Now trinkets? I still have Naxx ones because we have never gotten the ones I need to drop enough to win because I am in the deepest rolling pool for them (straight SP ones for shammy healers). You roll against 1 class, so 8% of the gear is for you and Aff, while another 8% is for all the mages-priests-warlocks (which any 1 of those classes usually outnumber ALL the rogues and feral druids). So yes there is an 8% chance your gear will drop and then a 50% chance you will win it, giving you a 4% chance of winning armor each boss kill, where Harley is on the order of winning a piece 0.8% of the time a boss dies.


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just to jump in... correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't totem of wrath and mana tide totems tied specifically to a SPEC, not shaman in general.

brez and innervate are not tied to a spec, they're just more difficult to use in bear form than the others (because you can't afford to pop out of bear while tanking)

He's not saying he wants to do it all (tank/heal/dps) he's saying he wants to be able to use his basic druid spells in all forms since they're basic druid spells. now obviously it'd be similar to paladins being able to cast heals in all specs.. granted heals from tanking are terrible, and ret are enough to take the place of a potion at best and holy is where you're strongest... should be the same for basic spells for druids in their forms.

bear/kitty get meh healing while trees are crazy good. etc.
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But he can cast them in any spec at any time. It's just not advisable to do it while you have aggro in bear form. Bear form (and kitty) are special abilities that are constantly happening (shapeshifted) think of it as a constantly channeled spell that has other effects going on (swipe mangle etc), he can only cast 1 spell at a time. So while using a special ability he can't use another, not to mention the lack of hands and mana while in these forms. It is available to him, just as easily as any other form, unfortunately he might go splat if he doesn't time it right while tanking. That doesn't seem like much of a hard trade off for the ability to tank, having to plan or coordinate when you cast 2 special abilities while using another??

And yes, those totems are tied to a spec, they are special abilities (like bear and kitty) and when I do them I can't do other totems that are universal to all shaman. By Ty's reasoning, the special shaman totems shouldn't affect what my regular totems are. So I should be able to keep the healing stream out and when mana gets low, drop the Mana Tide. It's not fair I lose my heal over time for mana return is it? So all spec totems should be a 5th totem I drop. Thanks Tur that is a perfect example, why do my special shaman spec abilities disturb my normal shaman abilities? Every shaman can Healing Stream Totem, why should I not be able to do that while getting mana back? And I lose them for much more than 2 GCDs, it's a 20-30 second operation (have to wait for totem to do it's job). But wait! I don't think it's a drawback, because it's A SPECIAL ABILITY, I can't do everything at once!


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Rildasomia wrote:

And yes, those totems are tied to a spec, they are special abilities (like bear and kitty) and when I do them I can't do other totems that are universal to all shaman. By Ty's reasoning, the special shaman totems shouldn't affect what my regular totems are. So I should be able to keep the healing stream out and when mana gets low, drop the Mana Tide. It's not fair I lose my heal over time for mana return is it? So all spec totems should be a 5th totem I drop. Thanks Tur that is a perfect example, why do my special shaman spec abilities disturb my normal shaman abilities? Every shaman can Healing Stream Totem, why should I not be able to do that while getting mana back? And I lose them for much more than 2 GCDs, it's a 20-30 second operation (have to wait for totem to do it's job). But wait! I don't think it's a drawback, because it's A SPECIAL ABILITY, I can't do everything at once!


bolded the important things for you.

actually.. its exactly the opposite, as bear/kitty are not specials he has to spec into. so its not even close to the same thing. with the exception of Tree and Owl, which are specials, the other forms for druids are regular spells, not tied to a specific spec. So all druids can be bears/cats regardless of how they spec. not so with your totems as you have to spec specifically into them. same with Brez and innervate, these are not talented spells but available to all druid forms. so you should be able to cast them in all forms.

You actually state it yourself, those are special abilities.... the two tyluv keeps referring to, brez and innervate.. are not specials...

this needs hands to cast thing is just plain silly, are you implying that you need what? fingers to cast? because I'm not sure about you, but I'm fairly certain shamans are holding a weapon and shield. I don't see them putting that away when they cast their heals, its more waiving your arms in a circle....

You're saying you think druids shouldn't be able to do this because they're specials.. this is wrong... you compare these to specials for shamans and say that its ok you can't use them all because they are specials... this is right.... specials are special, and therefor should supersede regular spells so you cannot have them both going at once... however the flip side is regular spells should be usable in tandem with regular spells... in this case.. innervate/brez should be usable with cat/bear form as they are both regular abilities, not specials.
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Wow, swing and a miss!
Black... No White!

So Ty doesn't need all those points in Feral to tank? He should put them into Resto so he can heal too while tanking, right? He can cast those spells while tank or cat, druids just don't like the inconvenience of shifting out and back in (it is dangerous for one). Not having mana in those forms is also a completely sane argument (/ignore) and not having hands makes sense in the context of component manipulation and gestures (/ignore). Trying to throw out the weapon and shield thing, I am guessing that if spell casting was real, that the casters would leave their daggers on their belt to free up fingers, your trying to use the limits of video game animation to say that (if spell casting were real) that it would just be big arm movement?

OR it could be animals don't have articulated movement in their extremities for manipulation of tools, ever seen a cat do the Macarena with maracas? How well does Big Jack sing while using a fork and knife to eat? oh wait, he doesn't have opposable thumbs, articulated joints with multiple axises of rotation and has a limited vocal inflection range (presuming he wasn't dumb as a stump).

Ok lets take the Mana Tide totem out, and use the Mana Stream totem?Huh?? Not a talented one, every shaman has it.... Still makes the Healing Stream Totem go away.... So does the Cleansing totem... So the "special" you were hinging on is gone, even though Feral druids are specced into... feral... so that they get all these special abilities while shifted into an animal they wouldn't have if not specced (like mangle, charge, beserk). So while in form, and adding in all new special abilities, he has to recast (shift) a spell after using b-rez...


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are you like... not able to read these posts?

how on earth is that a swing and a miss...black no white? it's like you read something you don't like so you spout out nonsense.



you are saying that you shouldn't be able to do specials on top of other specials.... no one is disagreeing with you here... and I don't believe this is about being able to use specials from one tree in addition to specials from another tree.. or being able to be the best of spec X while in Y spec. which by the way is true, a druid speced for bear tank will not be better dps than a druid speced for cat dps...

what you are WRONG about is thinking that bear/cat are specials.. they are not, they are REGULAR spells available to ALL druids REGARDLESS of spec.

ALSO since you seem incapable of comprehending this... Brez AND Innervate are also REGULAR spells available to ALL druids... bangs head so follow me here... regular spells.. and regular spells.. should be usable together no?


the points ty needs in feral to tank are for threat and hps and mitigation NOT to go bear... and NOT to get the brez/innervate spells.. which you will also NOT find in the resto tree or whatever his other tree is called. AS THEY ARE REGULAR DRUID SPELLS.

and OMFG dude NO ONE is saying he should be able to heal and tank and shoot magic missles and.. and.. and...I'm simply saying if you want to compare them to Paladins which can cast heals regardless of spec.. I'd have nothing to say against that, as the heals you can cast in other specs SUCK to the point they are virtually useless so why not. This is the same with shamans btw, an enhancement shamans heals suck compared to a resto shamans heals, but an enhancement shaman can still cast them no?

In NO way am I saying he should be able to be a MASTER/BEST EVAR healer while in bear form. I'm saying it makes no sense to block basic druid spells available to all specs/forms from easy use within ONE particular form ONLY...

you want to argue about mana, fine have brez and innervate draw on his RAGE while in bear form instead.. wooo wicked hard to comprehend that one... It's like you're being purposefully obtuse.


again your arguments for how "spells" are "cast" in a "fantasy" game is laughable at best... its FANTASY if I can imagine a giant space cow (Draenai) or hell a regular cow (Tuaren) capable of casting spells.. I sure can imagine a giant bear doing the same, its not that far of a stretch of the imagination there. just stop. Trying to compare REAL life animals to an Elf that can shapeshift into a bear is just asinine.

to quote..."even though Feral druids are specced into... feral... " the DO NOT SPEC INTO BEAR FORM... I don't know how many times we can say this to you before you believe it. They spec into talents that make their bear a better tank.. period...that's all... your listing specced specials like mangle and berserk again and comparing them to regular spells.. NO one is saying they should be able to Mangle and Wild Growth (special in resto) which is what you seem to think we're saying....

For your example with shamans, which isn't really the same thing, you're comparing two totems within the same family of totems, which specifically states you cannot have more than one totem from the same tree out at the same time. thats nothing like comparing a basic spell to a basic spell.

here's the notes on Rebirth...
# You must have a reagent in order to cast this spell.
# Take note of the 10 minute cooldown. (Reduced from 30 minutes in patch 2.3 and 10 minutes in patch 3.3.0)
# This is the only resurrection ability that can be used in combat.
# Druids can also learn Revive at level 12. It doesn't require a reagent nor does it have a cooldown.

OK now lets look at Stoneskin totem.
# Stoneskin Totem is an Earth totem, and thus cannot be used at the same time as another earth totem.

notice how it actually says you can't cast more than one earth totem... it actually calls this out... also notice how rebirth doesn't mention you need to be in a particular form.... I think you see where I'm going with this.? no?

A better comparison for you to use would be to say that for whatever reason Shamans couldn't cast chain lighting while in enhancement but could only cast lightning bolt... which isn't true, you can use them both in all specs because they are basic shaman spells.. available to ALL shamans regardless of what Spec (form) they are in. Oh and comparing Shamans ghost wolf form to bear form isn't a direct comparison either as ghost wolf is simply a traveling form. Druids traveling forms can't cast spells either.



Now you may have the opinion that you believe this is fine, and druids shouldn't be able to cast their basic druid spells while in any form, ok I can respect that even though I disagree with you. But please stop trying to compare apples and oranges and then using that comparison as your basis.
Loranus
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re: Bye-Bye Bears

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A little bit of Lore from the Warcraft Books. The only people who need to physically/verbally cast spells are Mages/Wizards/Warlocks and that is upon the concept that they magically twist and form magic using incantations to help form the magic into a particular form. Druids do not do such a thing as much as request help from the nature around them to perform many of the actions they do. A good example would be entangling roots which he uses his energy to reach out to nature around him and asks for them to restrain an opponent. This is why a majority of the healing spells are HoTs and have the names they have. The reasons some spells such as Wrath are incapable of being used in bear is the aspect that the energy must be channeled through the druid and cast out in a channeled direction which is some of the only reasons why you can't cast spells like that. Innervate doesn't work in that aspect and such as that they ask for the nature around them to replenish the user's energy/mana so they can continue to fight/heal. Shamans are along the lines of the druid except that they invoke Elements to cast their spells such as Fire,Water,Earth, and Wind which have control over these certain aspects of nature which is how they play. So in the aspect of innervate the bear/cat should be able to use it from a Lore aspect but it just isn't there.
Laanyan
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Arguing on the internet is like wrestling with a pig; you both get dirty, but the pig likes it.

I'd use the other analogy, but it's not exactly PC.
Rildasomia
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Do you even read other peoples posts? Or just assume it's a time for an argument and start yelling?

I happen to know they say you can't use 2 totems from the same family at the same time, it makes sense. Just like a cat/bear not being able to cast a spell, it makes sense. Space Cow vs Bear, it's humanoid, so yeah it can cast a spell. I don't see how this is confusing you other than it is an excuse to argue.

Plus everyone seems to like to ignore the giant elephant in the room I keep pointing at of NO MANA! Last I checked the spell took mana, and last run with a bear, they had rage... WOW, just one more hole in the "Bears should be able to cast their spells" argument, but lets just ignore that right?

B-Rez and Innervate are SPELLS so lets say they can cast them in bear form, why should just those SPELLS be the only ones? Why not a healing SPELL also? or damage SPELLS?


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