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Ekard12379
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Wow.com has a very interesting article which makes some very good points. It's a long read but well worth it:

Bye-Bye Bears?

Normally, I'd say meh, whatever, but a lot of these are exactly what I've been thinking about / struggling with over the last couple of weeks. I've almost an entire set of boomkin t8 and pvp/t9 that's dropped for me and it's the only type of gear (caster leather) that there isn't insane competition for... Turalon outgeared me in his tank stuff for a couple of weeks and he wasn't truly trying to build his tank set...He'd just gem and enchant it right away like any good raider with a viable offset and $$

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to stop tanking, but I've definitely noticed the gearing competition of melee dps drops with agi increase over the last year and drop rates on those items seemingly shrink significantly.


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Actually, it's just that Afflack's dice are shaved to land on 90+ all the time tongue
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poke except i think the other rogue have theirs shaved for 95+ when a weapon drops other than that yea it seems am the test dummy for all new leather gear
Ekard12379
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Well, this wasn't a hit at Aff or Atrias or anyone else. I just think it's stupid as a tank that I'm competing for what would otherwise dps gear on pretty much EVERY piece. The other tanks have gear that drops which is obviously tank gear (+defense, +parry, etc.) Then there's the hellish twist of rings/trinkets/neck/cloak/weapon and trying to make a combination that works effectively...

I just like the points which are all very accurate and combined make me wonder why there are any bear tanks left vs trees, kitties and boomkins.....

For those of you who don't want to read the full article, here's the summary of the points: (I've bolded the ones I feel are actually relavent.)

Complaint #1: Bears just aren't as visually compelling as other tanks.

"If I'm going to tank, I don't want to stare at a bear ass all the time, especially a LARGE bear ass that takes up half the screen."

Complaint #2: Gear consolidation had a more demoralizing effect on druids than other tanks.

"In BC the tanks talked the drops over and took care of each other. Now I'm fighting half the raid for gear while the other tanks get everything handed to them. That's not fun."

Complaint #3: The need to use DPS leather has resulted in an uncomfortable opportunity cost associated with gearing bear tanks.

"My raid leader's a rogue, and he's sick of sitting around waiting for me to get my stuff. We're going for hard-mode Jaraxxus-25 this week and his three options are a warrior, a death knight, and me. Guess who'll be coming as resto?"


Complaint #4: Early Wrath weaknesses in 5-mans left a bad impression on players, and this bled through to raid content.

"Who's your least favorite tank to heal and why?"

"My least favorite in a 5 man is a druid. It's not their fault and I still love them to pieces but they have the biggest challenge for maintaining aggro on groups. In a Pug situation, I will outright decline if the tank is a druid."

Complaint #5: Bear gameplay is boring. Too much of the bear's effectiveness is baked into talents rather than being determined by player skill. (This point is important due to the subparagraph not the actual complaint...see 2nd quote from the article author.)

"I wore the letter off my Swipe hotkey."

"My take: Bears being "boring" to play is by now a common charge on the Tanking forums, but it's a charge that's often leveled by people who don't actually play them. I'm not bored playing my bear tank and I'm especially not bored playing the druid class as a whole, but is has to be said that the original vision for the bear -- namely, to be a weaker copy of the warrior -- is still dogging the spec. Almost everything in the bear's toolkit has a direct counterpart in the warrior skill set, but the skills that most distinguish us from other tanks (Rebirth, Tranquility, Innervate, and improved DPS from cat form once your tank target has died) are inaccessible as long as the druid's still getting hit by a mob. It might be fair to say that the druid is the best possible tank to have when you don't actually need them to tank, and this is both a disheartening "niche" and a strong incentive not to use them in a main tank capacity."

Complaint #6: Gear consolidation often results in druids looking insanely stupid in caster form. (Funny, but meh)

"Allie: (In Ulduar), all of the non-set melee leather was oriented toward rogue tier, which had the effect of making druid (tanks) look like a postmodern clown on the run from Cirque du Soleil."
"Matt Rossi: Druids look like they got into the craft bin at the local thrift shop."
"My take: When the inability to see your gear while tanking can be considered a feature rather than a bug -- that's bad."

Complaint #7: If the raid needs more tanks, it's easier and faster to gear up a plate class than a druid.

"The plate +defense gear's been going to offspec for weeks, but the hunters get dibs on the next Twin's Pact or Hellion Glaive, and the rogues are still rolling on non-set. We need another tank, but they'll just respec one of the death knights for the next boss."

Complaint #8: A druid who's dual-specced into healing or DPS has more difficulty returning to tanking than other classes.

"Look, I know you really want to tank this fight, but all three of our tanks have excellent attendance and I don't want to leave any of you out of the raid. The warrior's going to tank, the pally's going DPS, and I'd like to have you come boomkin or heals because melee sucks on this fight. Would you seriously rather be benched?"

"My take: I honestly think this is the single most important reason behind the disappearance of the bear in raid content. On a more depressing note, it's also completely unavoidable.
It's somewhat related to #5 -- as we've observed, many of the advantages conferred by the use of a bear tank are advantages conferred by the use of a druid, period, and it's a lot easier for Balance, Resto, or cat druids to heal, battle-res, and innervate. That's a strike against us on any fight where the opportunities to pop out of bear are limited (if they exist at all), but oddly enough, tank parity is an equally significant disadvantage."

End of article points.

Here's the real kicker:

If you look at our guild there are just shy of 200 toons. 20 total characters that are druids - ok cool - 10% and there are 10 classes - about the right number of druids... Then it goes all wrong.... Of those, there is one other toon that is specced for tank at all. orly 5 would have been 2% of total toons and about right and 25% or 1/4 of the available options (bear, kitty, boomkin, tree). 2 is 0.4% of total toons and only 10% of total druids. (I looked at offspecs and for people that didn't have specs yet, talent point allocation or current gear.) Typically druids level as feral bear or kitty because it's easier and then switch....The numbers were even worse when I only looked at lvl 70+ druids. bangs head


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This is pretty spot on. Consider that Xzena has a heal set and a ret set from off-spec rolls that are both viable. Turalon - same deal on the prot set. Belgarion picked up a 245 ilvl heal plate item without competition last week (sorry Midaz).

The most interesting point in my view- is the double edged sword of bear tanking - that you dps in almost the same gear. This is why Ty is almost always the emergency/ utility tank in our 25s. He can crank great DPS and tank if necessary by switching forms mid-fight. This makes the class more useful in raids - its like having a battle res for the MT. But if he were the MT in the first place - you'd lose the backup because nobody else can do that. So - by being uber - he ends up dpsing most of the time. I'm not complaining - after all it gives Uel the only job he's really suited to do - but it could be frustrating for Ty. On the bright side - Uel dies and Ty picks up the boss most of the time anyway. wink

As for the number spec'd to tank - I think a fair comparison would be to look at the percentage of Warriors, Paladins and DK's who spec to tank as well. I suspect that tanks are a little more rare in most classes because most people dont want to do it. Evhax doesnt have a single tanking talent because my main is Uel - and I wanted to fill other rolls to expand the game. I originally chose the druid class because of the exceptional dps potential - but have learned that druid healing is very strong atm and a very popular option as well. I dont know much about boomkin - but the popularity and relative perfomance of these forms are definitely contributing to the scarcity of bears - it doesn't necessarily mean that people think bears are not viable. It kind of feels like a tank is a tank atm- and bliz has done this by design. People may feel like if there is no real clear advantage to being a bear tank - be a cat and top the meters or same deal as a tree.

I also agree that the shapeshift is boring -and have thought for a while that they should retain a basic humanoid shape in form. This would allow us to display armor and have some cool animation effects - but that is just window dressing.
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Well like Uel says bears have the ability, due to gear merging, to DPS and tank in the same gear. Yes you could tweak it either way, but as a rule, your bear gear lends itself to pretty good dps while kitty. None of the other hybrids can really make do with another specs gear. And no other hybrid can do multi jobs at a raiding level in one spec.

Now I agree that not being able to see your gear upgrades is kind of a downside, yeah the same ole same ole model does get kinda boring. But with my toons the only time I look at what the gear really looks like is when I put it on. During a raid I just look to make sure I am not standing in the fire. At least as the ONLY bear around it's easy to find yourself on 25 man. Heck Rild spent some serious money on repair bills because Tharin wasn't standing in the fire (very similar gear for a while). So all the animation and look stuff is kind of moot to me.

Now the part about getting squeezed out because the other tanks are better, well this is the same argument I have had time and again with Turalon. If you can do EVERYTHING you shouldn't be the best at ANYTHING. Druids even more than a pally as they have 4 specs (tank, melee, ranged, heals), you shouldn't be the best tank, you should be a niche tank. Let the warrior or DK be the main tanks on the big raids and be there to add significant dps and be able to insta-pop into bear when things go bad. No one else can without gimping their DPS? In 5s and 10s, I see no real difference between any of the tanks, only on the 25 man (or boss mechanics "IC" for example) do we see a benefit of one class over another. That being said, are there any bosses that you haven't tanked at some point, by design or death, on the 25 man runs?

Also, I think the numbers are kind of moot. How many DKs are tanks? Or paladins? Game wide I mean. Tanking is tough and a lot of responsibility falls to the tank. I think A LOT of people don't want to tanks. By the numbers you presented, 50% of all warriors should be tank specced and geared. 1/3 of all paladins. DPS isn't easy (well good dps) lots of twisting and tweaking, but you are also in the largest group of people in any group (3/5, 6/10, 17/25 or so) so the responsibilty to make XYZ dead is spread out. Healers and Tanks ride the fine line of JUST ENOUGH people there, that not everyone wants to be in that group.


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This is true, but I'm counting offspecs also, not just main spec. How many of the dk's, warriors and pallies that have offspecs have a tank spec? I haven't looked but I know of a couple pallies that have offspec tank off the top of my head...

I'm not talking about being the best vs being effective...I know I'm effective - just not used unless it's an emergency or we're running 10's. The issue for me is a couple things.. Being able to gear up and not gimp the dps as a result - I feel like I'm doing that and I don't want anyone to feel like I'm doing it to them.... having the bear spec use as a whole almost go away entirely - if a problem arises, I want blizz to fix it vs ignore it forever because noone uses the spec or they get rid of the spec altogether... and being able to actually utilize the unique features of the class, ie b-rez, innervate - I can't do that without changing out of form which is what effectively makes any spec for a druid - if I'm not in form, I can't use any of my feral abilities. Pallies in every spec have lay-hands, shaman always have heroism, hunter's fd?, mages blink?, etc etc.


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When it comes down to it many people don't want to tank cause there aren't really any immediate reward aspect to it. The same with healers but not so much. Psychologically we as humans do stuff for a marginal return and this applies to WoW also. DPS can go after a fight and see how much DPS they did on a boss and how they rank against other people. Healers not so much though they can see how much healing they did in a fight but depending on class and what place they are healing the Heals don't stack up the same. Tanks generally don't have anything like that and players don't like that. As a tank you keep aggro and keep the others from being hit but especially now with stuff like Misdirection and Tricks of the Trade we don't have anything to measure outside of how much damage we took which is derived from how fast the boss goes down which relies on DPS. I can relate to Tyluv in some aspects as such like Polearm from 25 ony suprised. We have to roll against All the hunters, druids, and DPS DKs in the raid for what would be a tanking item for us.
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But that's the thing. As a druid you can do all these different things, some no one else can, but you want to be able to do them all at the same time. I think not being able to cast your spells in bear/cat form is a pretty fair trade off. Especially since in an emergency you could have the mob taunted off, switch, cast, switch and be right back in the fight. Also most bosses have a phase or special ability that would let you switch-cast-switch. Druids have more utility than anyone, you can buff any stat, blast a mana return to anyone, battle rez, preform any job.

As for gear, that's how it goes. I mean in BC we had like 1 rogue 1 hunter and a warrior and pally dps, and that was it. EVERY other dps was ranged caster... yeah the gear was RARE to win something, plus there were a lot more pugs who always seemed to win. Even now, dps casters and healers have to share a lot of items. With the change to MP5 a few months back Tetra's regen went through the roof, so then I wasn't as interested in MP5 but haste and crit was KEY for me. Well that is exactly what Harley, Laan, Entice, Len, Val, Chaos, Misto, Sig, and any other mage/warlock/boom/sp/eleSH wants, AND any other healer. If you need it roll, sometimes you'll win and sometimes you'll lose. If you get a hot streak of winning, your gonna outgear Uel by a mile (example) and you will be the MT on most bosses, while Uel jumps to OT, and Bel/Lor goes DPS. Or you can stay in DPS mode throwing out b-rez and innervates, with one finger over the switch button to be able to jump in at a seconds notice. That is a lot more options than any other class/spec has in a fight.

I'm sorry I just don't think the most versatile class in the game has much room for complaints about the class as a whole. When mages or warlocks get their DPS nerfed they have room to complain as they do NOTHING ELSE. Or when they have to trade personel performance for raid performance that is an issue that needs to be looked at.


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ugh, yes tetra we know you believe that pure dps should be pure dps and they should be god almighty at dps... great. on to the actual topic.

Its actually the exact opposite of what he's saying. Ty's saying he wished it was more I tank or I dps or I.. not I can do both/all with the same gear...because then I get told I can't do (tank) because I'm utility so do (dps) even though thats not what i'm specced as.

for druids, not being able to cast their universal "druid" spells like innervate, brez, etc. while in a bear form is detrimental only in BEAR, but not the others, and isn't very druidy. Trees/Kitttys/Owlbears can just stop and cast them, that vs I'm main tank and ooh sorry can't just pop out of my tank form to brez you, because I'll get 1 shotted. I think you're missing the point. the point here is.. as a tank, he cant use his DRUID spells... not spells you spec into with other talents, CORE druid spells.


You aren't going to get any better on the gear though, its going to get worse if anything with Cat coming out, because then you're back to "on use" and stat based items. The only option i guess is to remove bears as tanks... and make druids able to Heal, range dps or dps... but I can already hear the uproar about that...get it..
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/yawn
The white zone is for loading and unloading only.


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um... ok
Ekard12379
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Rildasomia wrote:

/yawn
The white zone is for loading and unloading only.


Ok first off....Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?

Rildasomia wrote:
But that's the thing. As a druid you can do all these different things, some no one else can, but you want to be able to do them all at the same time.


Umm...No, actually Turalon is right in that I just want to be able to use my core Druid spells while in form and that means doing 1 of those things (tank/dps/range dps/heal), not more than 1 or all. To give you a better view, though not perfect example, as a Shaman, you can heroism in all 3 specs. You have other spells or abilities that are unique to your spec - every class has this for the specs. In my example, you now have heroism in dps 1, dps 2, but not healing. If you want to do heroism in healing, you have to run in front of the boss, taunt and make yourself vulnerable to taking 3-5 times normal damage because your armor and hps get cut by about 3/4 and 1/3 respectively.

Rildasomia wrote:
I think not being able to cast your spells in bear/cat form is a pretty fair trade off. Especially since in an emergency you could have the mob taunted off, switch, cast, switch and be right back in the fight. Also most bosses have a phase or special ability that would let you switch-cast-switch. Druids have more utility than anyone, you can buff any stat, blast a mana return to anyone, battle rez, preform any job.


Normally I'd say yes and agree with you - and in kitty/tree/boomkin, it doesn't matter if I have to change forms and change back or not because I shouldn't be getting hit to begin with. But why should I have a restriction (changing forms) to be able to do something that's unique to druids? That's like saying to heroism you have to remove all your totems, cast it and then drops them again. Or to FD for a hunter, you have to unequip your gun and get rid of your pet first. Why? It doesn't make sense.

And, I don't need the majority of my spells that aren't spec related when I'm in bear form. While it would be nice to have say, rejuvination, in bear form as that spell gets huge buffs up by speccing into healing, that falls under a healer's role/responsibility. Paladin's still have heals avail to them in tank form - they just suck. Should be the same with a druid. Warriors have what in druid bear form is called frenzied regeneration (don't know the warrior name) and DK's have the I hit you, you give me part of that hit in life spell that lasts 20 secs on a target. Technically speaking, druid bears should lose frenzied regen and get the rejuvination/crappy non-spec buffed spells, but I don't really care as it's mostly a healer's role/responsibility. Keeping with my example, however, b-rez & innervate, the 2 druid spells that are unique in function to the class, I should have access to in all forms.

Rildasomia wrote:
As for gear, that's how it goes. I mean in BC we had like 1 rogue 1 hunter and a warrior and pally dps, and that was it. EVERY other dps was ranged caster... yeah the gear was RARE to win something, plus there were a lot more pugs who always seemed to win. Even now, dps casters and healers have to share a lot of items. With the change to MP5 a few months back Tetra's regen went through the roof, so then I wasn't as interested in MP5 but haste and crit was KEY for me. Well that is exactly what Harley, Laan, Entice, Len, Val, Chaos, Misto, Sig, and any other mage/warlock/boom/sp/eleSH wants, AND any other healer. If you need it roll, sometimes you'll win and sometimes you'll lose.


You're missing my point - and I'm not sure how to fix it. I know there should be competition for drops and there should be crazy competition for certain drops (ie trophy of crusades & orbs). I'm not begrudging the competition or who gets them. What I don't like is that there's crazy competition for EVERY piece for one class of tank (druids) and only the other 1-2 tanks for any other class of tank. I don't like it for 2 reasons and 2 reasons only. 1. Because it takes me so much longer to gear up as a tank compared to the other types of tanks. 2. If any other tank wins a tanking piece, it does NOT hurt the DPS. If I win a piece, it DOES.

Now comes the arguement that I can dual use the item for dps or tanking. Well, yes and no. I can do crappy-ok dps if I enchant and gem it for tank (I'm barely above the tanks on meters when I'm dpsing in my tank gear), or I can do good dps and crappy tanking if I enchant and gem for dps. Just like any other class that can tank and dps, I need 2 sets to do either job really efficiently.

Rildasomia wrote:
If you get a hot streak of winning, your gonna outgear Uel by a mile (example) and you will be the MT on most bosses, while Uel jumps to OT, and Bel/Lor goes DPS. .


Umm...I was higher gear and I wasn't used. Not even OT - only emergency tank....and lately not even that because I switch and taunt vs one of the other 2 tanks just taunting. So lately, it's been a detriment because instead of e-tanking I'm just stripping aggro and confusing the healers as to whom to heal and gimping my dps and the raids dps.

Rildasomia wrote:
Or you can stay in DPS mode throwing out b-rez and innervates, with one finger over the switch button to be able to jump in at a seconds notice. That is a lot more options than any other class/spec has in a fight.

I'm sorry I just don't think the most versatile class in the game has much room for complaints about the class as a whole. When mages or warlocks get their DPS nerfed they have room to complain as they do NOTHING ELSE.


Versatile maybe, but ONLY at the 1 thing we're specced for and only if we spec properly (kitty vs bear the exception that I DON'T think should be there to spell it out)...and then we ONLY do the 1 thing truly effectively. Same thing as paladins - except the 2nd set of gear happens to have the same names for tank vs melee dps.

Rildasomia wrote:
Or when they have to trade personel performance for raid performance that is an issue that needs to be looked at.


Really? Because that's EXACTLY what I'm talking about with the gear and spec issues.....


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Tyluv (Ekard12379) wrote:
Rildasomia wrote:
If you get a hot streak of winning, your gonna outgear Uel by a mile (example) and you will be the MT on most bosses, while Uel jumps to OT, and Bel/Lor goes DPS. .


Umm...I was higher gear and I wasn't used. Not even OT - only emergency tank....and lately not even that because I switch and taunt vs one of the other 2 tanks just taunting. So lately, it's been a detriment because instead of e-tanking I'm just stripping aggro and confusing the healers as to whom to heal and gimping my dps and the raids dps.


I had covered this earlier, mebbe in one of the damagemeter posts, and not gotten any feedback, so I'll go again. Happy

I haven't worried from the 'best geared' aspect in the 25m fights, because all four tanks are easily adequate to the task in both gear and performance. However, I don't feel that the 25m stuff we've been into is 4tank stuff. My hunch is that either Ty or Lor can do more dps than Bel or Uel in offspec, and that between the two, only Ty can do well at both 'within the same fight'. That has been the basis on which I've laid out our 25m order, I thought it the best thing for the raid as a whole.

If folks think we should go straight-up 4tank since we do frequently drop a tank, let's talk. If folks think we should lock into 3tank and have the 4th locked into dps spec, let's talk. Gimme some feedback folks, because as it stands, I still feel that our current setup is the most viable.

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btw, totally agree on the gear thingy compaired to almost any other class. Now imagine trying to get feral gear on offspec because you're in as heals. Can you say cold day in a supernova? I thought that you could, lol.

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