Post new topic   Reply to topic    Guardians of Knowledge Forum Index -> Warrior
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Belgarion.
Guild Leader

user avatar

Joined: 04 Nov 2009
Posts: 1020

Send private message
Reply with quote

re: Gemming and Enchanting for Survivability

0
Uelander

I've not been stacking stamina on Uel like a lot of folks do - and I wanted to do a little research to determine if I should be doing something different. Intuitively, I thought avoidance was much more valuable than health so I tended to gem and enchant towards maximizing those stats. I still think it is - but now I think I know exactly how much more valuable and it isn't enough to buff in that direction.

I'm using the calculator in Tankspot - that returns Effective Health EH (adjusted for armor and stance) and total damage reduction TDR (considers armor and pure avoidance i.e. dodge, parry and miss)

http://www.tankspot.com/index.php?pageid=Calculator

The first assumption I made was that survivability is equal to the EH times the TDR - so long as the TDR is calculated with armor equal to 0 (otherwise armor is used in both and overweighted)

I get the following:

1% avoidance = 1.2% surv
1% health = 1% surv
1% armor = .59% surv

all this passes the smell test. If you buy this - you should amost always gem and enchant for stamina if your looking to improve survivability. At least until your health is in the 37,500 range.

A gem can increase stam 24 (approx 240 health) or dodge 21 (approx .5% avoid). At 37500 health 240 = a .64% increase and the weighted value of the additional avoidance is .6% to survivability.

It looks like -once your crit immune - all of our available permanent buffs should be focused on stamina and threat creating attributes (strength, hit and exp.)

I'm thinking Im about to spend a ton on re-enchants and blue gems...
Belgarion.
Guild Leader

user avatar

Joined: 04 Nov 2009
Posts: 1020

Send private message
Reply with quote

re: Uelander

0
I just thought of something else - Raid Buffs.

I guess this evaluation should be done fully buffed. Food, flash and most of the other health buffs typically impact it flat amount - so the base number has no impact on the value of the buff (not a % increase) Uel is just over 36k buffed. I also see a % increase to avoidance, but not I dont remember the impact. I believe the buffs that impact avoidance are % increases to stats. This makes the evaluation a little more complex because it mulitplies the impact of the avoidance gem or enchant.

I think Stam is still the most valuable attribute to add at this point for Uel - but avoidance (dodge probably bec of lower impact of dr) will catch up faster than I originally thought. I need to look at the stats buffed and make some notes based upon what is available from our raid group.
Belgarion.
Guild Leader

user avatar

Joined: 04 Nov 2009
Posts: 1020

Send private message
Reply with quote

re: Turalon

0
Great job finding this information. As you found out the reason to gem for Sta vs Avoidance is the ratio in which STA stack vs Avoidance with DR...There is no DR on Stamina, it will always convert to 1 sta to 10 health + Talent modifiers.

Does that calculation at the end there (At 37500 health 240 = a .64%) take into account the modifiers your talents give to your stamina? I know for me personally my talents increase my stamina by 0.16% so 1 stamina is really 11.6 instead of 10 making 24 stamina roughly 279 health.

Another thing to consider as well. If you are at your Defense cap, as a Paladin or Warrior, it's better to us STR + STA gems as your (red) gems when going for socket bonus' as STR has no DR, and also contributes to your Block Value and your Attack Power. Or if you have issues hitting Defense cap, use STR + DEF to hit Red bonus and to use STA + DEF to hit your (yellow) socket bonus.

to fix your URL.. .it should read [url=http://blahblahblh.com

you can even just name your URL "Calculator" by doing this

Calculator
Belgarion.
Guild Leader

user avatar

Joined: 04 Nov 2009
Posts: 1020

Send private message
Reply with quote

re: Turalon

0
the reason you are seeing your Dodge increase with raid buffs is not because of your gems.. it's from your Agility, which gets at least a 10% increase from BoKings.
Belgarion.
Guild Leader

user avatar

Joined: 04 Nov 2009
Posts: 1020

Send private message
Reply with quote

re: Uelander

0
Thanks T - the .64% increase to health and the .5% increase in avoidance were estimates - I'll use ratingsbuster to calculate the actual numbers.
Belgarion.
Guild Leader

user avatar

Joined: 04 Nov 2009
Posts: 1020

Send private message
Reply with quote

re: Belgarion

0
Rawr works out nicely in comparing gems and enchants for any given gear. It seems to weigh the two pretty equally, i.e. it rates a 24stam gem as equal to a 12stam/8agi or a 12stam/8 or a 16agi for overall tank value, and lists the make-up that creates that rating (survive/mitigate/threat). I've used straight stam for blues, but a stam-mitigate/avoidance for the red and yellows, I don't agree at all that spending enchants or gem slots on str is a good way to go. According to Rawr, some things don't quite come out like you expect, for example putting +16agi on your feet is actually better than putting +22stam on them.

Haven't actually crunched numbers myself, I'm going on the premise that if they've actually gone to the trouble to code and weight the various combinations, gems, and enchants with the breakdowns behind them, I'm not gonna go far off the mark. I pretty much use Rawr as the guideline for all of my characters' gear-sets amd enhancements.

Just my 2c, heh.

Belgarion
Belgarion.
Guild Leader

user avatar

Joined: 04 Nov 2009
Posts: 1020

Send private message
Reply with quote

re: Turalon

0
Paladins:

1 agility = 0.04% of dodge (if you had 50 agility you would have an added 2% dodge).

Warriors:
1 agility = 0.07% of dodge

Also 1 agility = 0.02% crit, so you aren't getting as much threat with that as say...strength to AP

however STR = 2 AP and also BV = STR/2 so you are getting a mitigation stat and a threat stat that scales better.

so for that boot enchant.... as a paladin you'd be getting roughly 0.64% dodge from that vs gaining 255 hps from the stamina enchant. You're going to have to use the other calculation to see if 0.64% dodge is worth 255 hps....
Belgarion.
Guild Leader

user avatar

Joined: 04 Nov 2009
Posts: 1020

Send private message
Reply with quote

re: Turalon

0
also I'm not saying to Enchant for Str... I'm saying it's more beneficial to gem for Defense and Stamina where you can... as Defense has less DR than straight Avoidance stats like dodge and parry..

And IMO STR > AGI.. this is why you see STR on tanking items and not AGI...
Belgarion.
Guild Leader

user avatar

Joined: 04 Nov 2009
Posts: 1020

Send private message
Reply with quote

re: Uelander

0
I think its been worked out that to maximize avoidance you stack Defense and Dodge (not Parry because it is capped lower and DRs more quickly) in a ratio between 3:2 and 2:1. I believe this is to take advantage of the higher cap on dodge.

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/40003-diminishing-returns-avoidance.html

But the decision of when to work in the direction of avoidance or EH or mitigation or threat is not as clear.

For Uel in Ulduar - staying alive is the issue. Avoidance and EH have to be priority. Besides, the ilevel 213 and 216 tank stuff has a lot of hit and exp on it anyway. If I run into a problem holding threat - I'll throw on a piece from my hit set.

Theoretically,there should be an absolutely right answer if your choosing between EH and avoidance. I was really just trying to come up with a model that would help choose between the two. 1% avoidance looks like it will always be worth more than 1% EH in the long run -but will cost more in terms of gear/gems whatever until your health is pretty high. So to get max value from that gem slot - figure out what percent impact you can get to avoidance or to health. If the % impact to avoid is >= .83 times the % impact to health go that route. Otherwise, I think you go the health route if your trying to improve survivability.

Id bet the difference between getting it absolutely optimal and wingin' it is probably very small - but Im a geek and this is fun for me.

BTW - Bel thanks for mentioning Rawr- I'm trying to load it now. It sounds like a great app. I'll be interested to see how they have approached it.
Belgarion.
Guild Leader

user avatar

Joined: 04 Nov 2009
Posts: 1020

Send private message
Reply with quote

re: Laanyan

0
I dunno, I'm not at a place that I have all sorts of extra defense kicking around. I gem for defense to get that over 540, then strength/sta gems to get my meta working, then straight stamina.

I do strength for the fact that it adds threat and block value.
Belgarion.
Guild Leader

user avatar

Joined: 04 Nov 2009
Posts: 1020

Send private message
Reply with quote

re: Turalon

0
another thing to consider Uel.

Tanking Naxx 10 and 25 man is easymode right now in regards to your DPS/TPS. At that level, the DPS people are not pumping out significantly high threat, thus it's not entirely necessary to gear towards increasing threat/sta vs avoidance/sta.

Once you start hitting Ulduar and your DPS starts getting geared, this is where you need to start working on your threat/sta gear. As you mentioned there is a cap in the sta in regards to best for survivability... Until you start hitting 35K plus hps unbuffed though it's "cheaper" to gear for STA. I don't know about others, but in Ulduar I'm putting out on average 3500 to 4500 Threat as Ret, more if I AE from the get go...this is a significant increase fromthe 2500-3000 I was doing in Naxx... and I've only updated a cloak/weapon and ring from Ulduar...

just something to keep in mind when considering the threat/stamina vs the avoidance/stamina route. It's great to have avoidance, but if your DPS is stripping aggro from you consistently it doesn't matter if you can avoid those hits that aren't hitting you.
Belgarion.
Guild Leader

user avatar

Joined: 04 Nov 2009
Posts: 1020

Send private message
Reply with quote

re: Uelander

0
I think it all comes down to party balance.

Heals and tanks need to balance damage in v. healing. Tanks and DPS need to all be clicking at about the same level of TPS (with the tanks slightly ahead).

Then of course - everyone needs to stay out of the blue stuff bangs head

BTW - 4500 TPS!!! - orly You get Vigilance - no question. (I need a Red Bull)
Posts from:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Guardians of Knowledge Forum Index -> Warrior All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum